First Ultra Training Questions...

[2themax]

Hey CFE community,

I'm relatively new to the whole CF/CFE world (about 6 months of training) but I come from a pretty athletic background (4:30 mile, 15:41 5k). I'm currently a freshman in college and have walked onto our very competitive crew team. Our main racing season is in the spring and ends May 16th, which begs the questions I'm about to ask... I'd like to run at least a couple ultramarathons over this coming summer but I'm wondering how to train for these while simultaneously giving 100% to my team. Our weekly training regimen splits work-to-rest-days as such "3/1/2/1" with the first 4 workouts being interval or tempo on the erg and a strength WoD or quick couplet WoD immediately following, and the 5th being a metcon of some sort.

With this schedule, off-days being Thursdays and Sundays, what is the best way (if there is one) to sneak in some Ultra training? Also, approximately how much CFE training would you recommend before someone runs their first Ultra? If that answer is based mostly on the status of the particular athlete, to give you an idea of where I'm at, not having run since Thanksgiving Break, I hopped on a treadmill a couple days ago and ran 13.1 miles at just under 9:00 mile pace (around the pace I'm hoping I'd run in an ultra, depending on the distance) if you don't include 2 quick bathroom breaks (I had eaten lunch 30 min. before I ran due to time constraints). This wasn't all out and felt pretty comfortable, although my feet and knees haven't agree with me too much since then. So considering where I'm at, if it is at all practical, how would you advise me to work running into my schedule? Should I really just wait until the season is over? And for how long should I train before I race? I'm checking out the Nanny Goat's race in Riverside, CA on 5/29 which has a 12 hr, 24 hr, and 100 mile option. Unreasonable or too soon? And for my first Ultra, is it okay to start out with the 100 miler or is there an unwritten rule against that and I should just begin with a 50k instead?

Any and all advice is appreciated,
Scott

[trailrunnerpatten]

Okay, I will give this one a shot.

I can only speak from ultra experience, not on the CFE questions. I am new to CFE.

First off, entire books have been written on the questions you have asked, so my answers will be rather to the point. If you want, PM me and we can talk more or better yet, I can get you in touch with some "elite" ultrarunners (I use that term subjectively).

*****

Your current running resume, while awesome, won't necessarily translate into great ultra success (speed). In fact, it has a small impact on it. Ultras call upon an entirely different physiology than a 5K... especially a sub 16min 5k. But, if you are hard core enough to do that, the sky is the limit.

I break ultra success (50 mile - 100 mile) down to an equal 3 part distributions

1/3 Running strength
1/3 Experience & Strategy
1/3 Fuel and Hydration

Your ability to run a 4:30 miles does nothing for you in a 100 mile race.
Imagine this: You are racing a road 5k, and out of nowhere a car comes on to course and runs you down. Then you get back on your feet to finish. That is a little bit like running a 100 miler. Yes... and exaggeration, but my point is that you deal with things that have nothing to do with running.

One of the best things you can do for 50 or longer is get your diet in line. Get your body to burn fat as its primary fuel source. I am guessing, being a college kid, your body relies primarily on glycogen. Paleo Diet, Zone Diet, or any low carb diet will help with that. Just make sure you get plenty of micronutrients and avoid saturated fat.

Your body's ability to burn fat is critical to continue running after 40-50 miles. Knowing the right balance of electrolytes and food is also critical to stay on your feet for more than 12 hours.

I would say 9 minute mile pace is a bit agressive for a 100 Mile. That puts you at 15 hours. That puts you at world calss level. But.... someone's gotta do it.

There is no rule saying you can't start with a 100 M as a first ultra. I would say if you do that, do your research and BE PREPARED. Be prepared for anything and everything. (swarms of bees attacking you, getting lost, chaffing in areas you did not think possible _ I speak of these from personal experience). If you are unprepared, you will rub your fellow competitors the wrong way, and will end up taking a lot of resources from volunteers who could be supporting other people.

Do yourself a favor, start with a 50. See if you can do that at a 9 minute pace. I think you would be surprised how hard it is. But... you might just kick some ass.

Good Luck

Matthew Patten
http://www.blogoftraining.blogspot.com

[jonyoon]

I'd say Matthew's comments are pretty dead on. Although I'm sure he'll also agree with me that sometimes the 1/3 split between running strength, experience/strategy, and fuel/hydration can turn lop-sided when race-day comes around and sometimes things will change mid-race.

The general vibe with ultras is that you should be able to take care of yourself on the course, even though there may be volunteers on the course or other runners that will lend a hand. A good example of this is running a course that has no aid stations and you have to get your own water from streams (the Plain 100 is a prime example of this) or having aid stations that are 6 miles apart or more (this is common at most 50 and 100 milers). This ability to self-manage can be read and researched, but is only truly understood with experience. I agree with Matthew, start with a 50 miler or do a 50k to start. That 12 hour race is also a good one as well for you to start with for your first ultra. Timed races are nice due to being able to cover as much distance as possible within the allotted time. So if you decided you've ran enough, you could still keep trying to walk out the rest of the time or just bag it for the day. There's no true DNF's at timed races, just less miles if you choose to stop moving when the clock is still going.

[2themax]

Thank you both for your responses and advice! Not having even began training or gone on a run lasting beyond two hours, I know that I don’t know what I’m getting myself into and won’t know until after my first race is done. I also understand that my mile/5k times won’t have much influence on my overall performance in an ultra but I figured it was important to give you all my background. I really enjoyed your 100 miler analogy, Matthew. It makes me a little nervous to say the least, but at least I have a visual now.

To Matthew: I’ll pm you for some more pointed advice and possible contacts with other experienced runners, but in case in other newbies look at this thread, I have a few follow-up questions. Obviously, as you said, entire books have been written on this, but from your experience, what do you define as “running strength”? Is there a certain technique you would recommend, and outside of CFE, is there anything in particular you think would help improve my strength? And on fuel and hydration, even though every body is different, what works best for you? Does Paleo get kicked out the window on raceday or what? By the way, I’ve been attempting to follow a Paleo/Zone combo for awhile, but going to a dining hall where there is all kinds of food available to my weak will and strong stomach, my diet isn’t all that strong. That’s something I will really have to work on I guess.

To jonyoon: The race I’m looking at, which has the 12 hr/24 hr/100 mile options, is on a one mile loop course so I suppose that would make it a very good beginning ultra for me, in terms of the availability of aid and a way out if I’m just over my head. Could you give me one or two pointers on self-management from your experience though, some things you wished you would’ve have known before you did your first ultra? Thanks again for your help!

[jonyoon]

A one mile loop with a fully supported aid station is a good option for a first timer or for anyone who's looking to have a fast time solely based on distance alone since most looped course are flat (note the word "most"). The best strategy is to start easy and do your best to hold it for the next several hours, so run at or below your "comfy pace". Unless you're competing with the top guys and girls to get the most miles, its best to just focus on yourself and stay on your feet for as long as possible. There's no point in trying to kick in the middle of the event, but when there is about 2 hours left - then you can try and muster up as much effort to get in as many miles as possible.

Now just because the aid station is there, doesn't mean for your to start feeding every mile. Replenishing yourself does gobble up time in the grand scheme of things, so plan on trying to hit the aid station only every 3 miles (more miles if you're like a camel when it comes to water consumption). Exception to this rule is when it is HOT outside, then you need to be more diligent with maintaining hydration and electrolyte levels and you may be stopping by more often to get a drink. Since its a looped course, you may not need to carry things on you like bottles or energy gels. But to each his/her own, some are comfortable in doing that and others aren't.

Aid stations will usually carry a variety of food for long races like 12/24 hour runs. However, if there is anything special you want and they may not have (the race site will usually say what foods they'll have), you will most likely need to have your own stash of food with your drop bag or your own crew that will give you whatever food you need. My stomach is usually good to eat nearly anything that is served (e.g. chips, fruit, sandwiches, etc), but everyone is different and unless you experiment prior to race day - you'll be taking a chance (and possibly making more stops to the port-a-potty). I know that Shane Skowron consumes Olive Oil and Coconut Oil during races (and gets odd looks from other ultrarunners in the process), but he's trained that way.

Blisters are very common along with deep aches during these events. Pain management is also something you need to deal with. For blister prevention, you need to make sure your shoes are not messed up on the inside. A simple area that may have rubbed you during a 2 hour run you did during training will turn into a massive blister in a 12 hour event and practically stop you in your tracks. Same goes for socks (get good moisture-wicking ones that minimize friction in the shoe - I like socks by DryMax) and also making sure no bits of dirt get into the shoe (a grain of sand can cause a world of hurt later). Wear gaiters to help keep stuff out of the shoe. Make a blister kit in-case you get a blister and need to lance it (unless you want to just leave them alone and just keep running on them, some of my friends do that and I'll do that on occasion if the blister isn't too bothersome.) The book Fixing Your Feet from John Vonhof is something all athletes that are on their feet should have on their bookshelf since it provides tons of info on foot care. Also, do your best to not take any kind of pain medications on the course, if you can help it. Too much of that stuff can wreak havoc on your kidneys (Advil/Aleve) and liver (Tylenol).

Hydration and Electrolyte balance are extremely important. Too little hydration, you could suffer rhabdo. Too much, you'll suffer from hyponatrimia and be overloaded with too much water. General rule of thumb is that you're sweating and you can pee and it's not brown, you're good. I usually try to make sure my electrolytes and my fueling are kept separate. This means I don't drink Gatorade or anything similar that combines carbs and electrolytes. For electrolytes, I'll have S!Caps and Nuun. Others will have SaltStick or Endurolytes. If I need carbs, I'll have either an energy gel like GU, I'll eat some real food (fat & protein from real food also helps), or I'll have a small amount of Coke or Pepsi on the course (that stuff is like jet-fuel when you're 6 hours into an event.) Otherwise, it's water the rest of the time.

When you get tired, start to have shorter goals to cover distance. Instead of running one mile loop to the next, run from tree to tree or time it - run 5 minutes, walk 1-2 minutes, repeat. Keep moving forward or think "Relentless Forward Motion" as one of my friends put it. If you can't run, walk until you can run again. People will pass you and tell you that you look great. Focus on the good mojo they're giving you. Use it. Feeling more positive can lift up your spirits and can add that pep in your step to get in more distance. Have a mantra, something to tell yourself so you keep going. Mine back at the White River 50 was from the game Halo 3 - "Finish the Fight."

Check the site http://www.ultrunr.com - they've got alot of other info on running ultras and the things you need to know to help make your first one successful.

Good luck!

[2themax]

Wow jonyoon, I owe you one! Thanks for bestowing so much of your knowledge and experience to me. When I get closer to competition time, I might have a few more questions if I don't find them in other resources (Great link by the way! I foresee hours of time spent following all the links that site has.) but you've already covered many of the areas of concern I had.

Happy training,
Scott

[myles m]

Solid thread guys. I am gobbling this up. I would also recommend reading Cordain's Paleo Diet for Athletes. This is pretty essential stuff if going the Primal route. He covers shorter stuff and the long, long, long ones too.

[Redbarron]

Scott,

You have a difficult situation with specializing for crew and then wanting to run an ultra shortly after being as specialized as you can get for your final crew event of the season. I think you can pull it off though since rowing is such a demanding full body event. I'm going to try to answer the questions I found in your post below:

1. "is it okay to start out with the 100 miler?" ANS = yes if you train for it well. I had a friend run his first ultra with me and it was a 100 miler, but we trained hard for 15 weeks, did all the research we could about nutrition and hydration, and studied the blogs of other ultrarunners.

2. "what is the best way (if there is one) to sneak in some Ultra training?" ANS = listen to your body and use the recovery days built into your crew schedule, but if you feel like you can do some extra workouts on the side to get ready for an ultra, I would say you need to run. I do not believe you need to run much to prepare for an ultra (for the 15 weeks I trained for the 100 miler I did, I averaged 14 miles a week). Here are some running workouts that I would recommend from my own training: A 10 mile time trial every two weeks. 20 min uphill tempo run. 800m repeats with 2 min rest. (really any workout posted on the CFE site)

3. "approximately how much CFE training would you recommend before someone runs their first Ultra?" + "how long should I train before I race?" ANS = depends on your fitness level coming into the training. For you, coming out of crew season, I would say you should give yourself 4 weeks for a marathon or 50K, 8 weeks for a 50 miler, and 10 weeks for a 100 miler. (I make these recommendations with the assumption that your main goal is to finish but you would also like to finish with a decent time). If you want to do better, I would say you need at least 15 weeks of training for any event (think about how long your crew season is, how long do you train to be ready for that one final race?)

4. "how would you advise me to work running into my schedule?" ANS = depends on how destroyed your crew workouts make you. The most important thing is to recover properly, so if you can't do that when you add in running workouts, just wait until the season is over and give yourself the proper amount of training time to prepare for the ultra.


Hope this helps

[2themax]

Redbarron,

Thanks so much for breaking this down for me and understanding my situation. I'm basically working it the way you recommended, listening to my body and evaluating my rates of recovery and quality of practice. Unfortunately, with only 1 week between our championship and the 50k, I wont be able to get the 4 weeks of training in before the race but I feel if I'm sneaking in 2 (quality) running workouts a week, in addition to my crew practices and strength WoDs, I should be able to compete well. I'll definitely see if I can work in some of those workouts you mentioned too. They look nice and painful!

Scott