CFE MTB ULTRA

[drewmtb12]

Wanted to toss this question out there and see what if any results has been seen with CFE and Ultra MTB events..meaning 12-24 hr races. I have some ideas about training with CFE/CF but would love to hear some reports of successful races.

I personally would still want to include some longer rides of 6ish hours to just get the old rear end use to sitting on a saddle for a long time. I would have 1-2 weeks dedicated to shorter harder intervals and 1-2 weeks of more longer intervals and some hard 2 hour tempo rides with everyother week a long ride.

I beleive a 12 hour solo event is very doable with CF/CFE without doing too many 6 hour rides but for the full 24 i truly feel you have to mentally be prepared for a looooong night. by doning long rides at odd hours of the night would be very helpful.
Years ago i raced 12-24 hr races but my training was 10-18 hours per week with maybe 1-2 strength wods per week. I use to get up at 3am on saturday morning and ride till 8 or 9 am. I found the mental side of this ride better than the physical benefits.

I know most of people on this forum are runners and triathletes but i think it would be great to get some MTB'ers out there as well. I also am a runner and tri person, having completed a trail mrathon and some adv races on CF/CFE (did some of these events before the CFE site launched) Was training for IM last year being coached by MEl at txtridogs using CF/CFE but blew my ankle out a few weeks out from IM. So, I know this training works and works well.

Respnd with ideas or success stories

Drew

[gary ohm]

I would love to see some mtb specific info here. I ride a singlespeed, so I'm a bit different in what I need compared to a strict spinner.
For success stories, I don't have any based on cycling, but I do based on hiking. Every year my family and I go to Yosemite for a few days. I always hike Half Dome/Cloud's Rest. Last year I had been only doing HIIT style work with no workouts over 45 minutes in length. My all day hike time dropped from about 10 hours to seven compared to the same hike three years earlier.
This is not in the realm of 12 to 24 hour ultra like the OP, but in my mind it does say that HIIT training has a great crossover to longer endurance based events.

I'll be watching this thread for sure.

[Steve Neal]

I feel that the biggest issues in ultra racing (of any kind likely) are nutritional.

If you feel you need to go long to achieve mental confidence so be it...however if you have previous race experience at this duration then you likely gained quite a bit of confidence in doing that event.

I finished 7th overall in one of the biggest 24 hour races several years ago...it was won by a top elite rider and eventual 24 hour solo world champion that season.

I was training about 7 hours a week...decided to do the race 6 weeks out after 2 years off my bike.

I focused on pacing during the event and had an exact plan...and tried my best to nail the nutrition...which was the trickiest without any practice.

I did manage to be in first place by 2am...had a bad 4 hour stint stomach wise...and lost some spots.

At the time ... well before I knew this training existed ... I made it possible to be in the top of a competitive field (stamstead...among others) on very little training.

I think that you need to be mentally tough ... you need to have a pacing strategy that you believe in ...

I believe the training can work for you if you believe it will...just remember you have to be careful combing methods...in order for high intensity training to work you must be able to train at high intensity...sometimes volume can get in the way of this goal.

I am terrible at following forums...so my email is steve@crossfitorangeville.com if you have any other questions...or want to let me know there is more on this post...

I have been a professional mtb coach for 16 years...working with many different levels of athletes...and using a number of different philosophies depending on the personality of the athlete...their goals...their likes...dislikes...among many other factors.

[tuckaaron]

I just completed a 15 hour AR on high intensity training. I started CFE about a month prior to the race however my previous routine was similar training. With that being said I am now using CFE for a few reasons. The first is I have always been a train hard type of person. Never into jogging but instead going all out until I couldn't. However, I was always an over trainer. I was the guy who would go all out for three weeks and then die. Next thing I know is I have t take a week off then do it all over again. Don't get me wrong I got great results but always knew there had to be a smarter way. Just never though about the whole you get faster by recovery over more training.
Second, I have the ability to be tested within a human performance program. This is everything from flexibility, power, anaerobic power/average, and VO2 max as well as lactic thresh holds with HR's. My goal is to to 3 months of CFE programming and see the results.
To get more to your question... yes I had good results at the last race I did. It was only 15 hours of racing but it was still 15 hours of racing. I felt good the whole race for the most part (weather was 30's and raining the whole day) had no soreness the next day. I did have a little overuse in a few joints but due to weather I think that was a lot. I also didn't consume enough calories for the weather which took its toll and caused cramping. With all of that I truly felt like the training was working. I pushed hard and went faster than I thought (we ran a 9minute pace on foot the whole time which is faster than normal for us) and my legs were exhausted by the end but every transition I felt pretty good after 5 minutes of sitting and getting ready.
Overall, I have become fond of this training and I started a blog a short while ago to track my results, gear, training, etc...
The big test for me is going to be a 50 hour ar in about 8 weeks. This should truly prove how it all works. Especially since two of my teammates have the ability to compete on a pro level.
Here is my blog feel free to comment, give advice etc.
http://aaron-artraining.blogspot.com/
I also agree that nutrition is key to racing as well as a plan and following both of them. Hammer puts out a good manual on this on their site. It's more geared to using hammer supplements but they give a lot of good info on calorie consumption as well. This might be my only issue with CFE for beginners. You need to train how you fight so to speak. If you are CFE'ing for an ultra you need to know and understand your body when it comes to calories. For veterans this isn't usually a big deal. If you have never run a distance where you need to consume calories then you need to incorporate this into your training. Even if this means doing it on the TT days. Learn what works and what doesn't. Do pro triathletes train transitions? Of course they do, and they train eating while racing as well as every other aspect of racing.
I follow CFE with one alibi. I do training session with my team which of course last more than a short time. I do these and train nutrition at the same time. I know it isn't CFE theory but still have to build the team at the same time.
This is all my opinion and if you feel different let me know!

[drewmtb12]

Thanks for the replys! I agree 100% about nutrtion..i use alot of hammer products in the past but usually up the protein counts on a few of their products. Back in the early 2000's when i was into the 12-24 hr races my nutrion was so what skeptic. I did not have a good handle on food like i do today. I would just eat whatever during an event and eat mostly descent when not training but still my diet was not balanced at all. today, i practise Paleo diet the best i can, sometimes due to my job i have to use more zone foods than i like. But i have cut out processed food ALOT..and have seen some huge results since adopting Paleo back this fall.

The reason i brought up the ULTRA MTB topic is due to the amount of questions i get from my friends. I may do 1 or 2 12 hour races this year myself cause i miss riding my MTB all day for $50, a t shirt and cold beers afterwards. I have a hard time justifying some of the shorter XC race fees nowadays.
Most of the guys i ride with just love to ride and HATE the thought of weights or training. They just love to ride! Now..some of these guys are just gifted, and i cant argue with these guys but what if they did some additional focused training? What resluts would they see? My mtb team is mostly composed of ultra mtb guys, they do alot of MTB adv races of 12 hours to 36 hours to stage races. Some of them have started to do the 100 mile series as well.
I know that CF/CFE is not the end all training for all endurance athletes but i for one have seen the beneifts of HARD focused training.
Now to switch gears i found a great site with HIIT mtb training for the ultra athlete.
http://enduropulse.com.au/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=77
Mark Fenner is a mtb bad ass "down under". This guy has a cool blog that has a ton of HIIT theorys. But there is no weight training in his programming. Here are his other sites:
http://www.ftptraining.com/
http://ftptraining.wordpress.com/

Let me know what you guys think
Drew

Check out this site

[Steve Neal]

Hi Drew...

I went to check out the site...

The training there is fairly normal...I know it is coined as high intensity but that training is quite normal for mtb at many levels.

It is quite normal to have 3 interval sessions per week focusing on my a few different energy systems...the volume that surrounds those intervals can vary widely based on the athletes physical ability and desire.

A pretty typical week of training for an athlete of mine...during this time of the year...peaking for first race in June might look like :

3x10 at 90% FTP (taken from 20 min Time Trial for sake of this post) x 2 times in the week

10 min of 15 ON / 15 OFF where avg performance is that of the 20 min TT as well with ON about 150% of that avg performance (this isn't an easy set) -- rest 10 min and repeat

and likely one other Tempo based...30 to 40 min interval at 80% ish...sub TT style...

I usually use reverse periodization (for lack of better term as I don't really periodize) ... so the athletes would have already done a lot of vo2 max and power work leading up to this point to really boost the top end...now work on some more steady state type intervals to give some substance to that improved vo2

I think that CFE is similar but has more higher intensity session like vo2 max efforts and anaerobic capacity efforts...but you really have to do this type of training right...and many people don't go hard enough...make sense?

Steve

[drewmtb12]

Steve...good info..thanks for that! I have actually been a follower of ur site for a quite a while.
How do you CF your endurance athletes? Also, if im correct you do most of your programming and just dont follow CFE site?

I agree with you that most athletes dont train HARD enough..I got a power meter last year that has completly changed how i train.

What is your peak hours for a long ride you would haev an athlete do for 12-24 hour racing?

[Steve Neal]

Hi Drew,

The amount of volume depends on the individual.

Most elite riders I coach still like one long ride...2.5 to 4 hours...this is usually off-road...a variety of intensities to work on skills.

I still don't know all of the answers...but I feel that the longest ride that really needs to be done is about 3 hours if the athlete is racing for two...some people like to go longer...and as long as their interval numbers improve I am ok with that until I can really prove otherwise. But the focus is on the work.

I have an athlete right now only doing intensity...and recovery for the last few months. right after the recovery phase there is always a little endurance block where there is one long ride...the interesting thing is that during these rides he feels fine and endurance performance is still there. So he is getting more confidence in the intervals having an effect on the other pace...and we are trying to focus more and more on race specific paces.

It used to be that athletes did endurance and tested the high end...did the odd interval block. Now I am trying as much intensity as the athlete can absorb ... along with not losing the ability to ride longer than there race at a reasonable endurance pace...this is a lot of intensity for elites...maybe 6 intervals a week...maybe more! For us normal people...and more of us are normal than we think It is likely 2 to 4 intervals sessions per week.

For CF with people who have availability to equipment...back squat, deadlift, press 1 to 5 reps working on max strength

1 metcon a week usually consisting of pullups/situps/air squats/burpees/lunges/jumps/running (I like them to run once a week at least)

I also do a few times a week where during there longer session if there is any they do 3 to 5 rounds of Cindy every 15 min.

I do program my own intervals but have used many of the sets off here as well as they are very good.

Steve